im sure its an initial torque, then 60 degrees then the 120, billy is the guy to ask on that though

Not what this says Cylinder head tightening sequence 1997-2005

But I hope you're right. that would mean I am 60 degrees off and can start again without buying new bolts as I haven't over stretched. Also if you are right about the head not compressing after the first few bolts, then an additional angle sequence would explain why they were so easy to turn.

Sure billy will be along shortly to clarify.

Sorry for the delay, had a rough weekend.

You do them all up to 29 NM - Use a torque wrench, set it to click at 29NM. Follow the sequence in the link above, so do the bolt marked 1 first, then 2 and so on, do not go backwards until you have done all 18, then start at 1 again.
You can then go over the bolts again. still using the torque wrench, still set to click at 29nm. You will find that as the gasket has compressed down flat the first few bolts you did will need a bit more turning, the next few may only need a little bit and the last few will have pretty much stayed put.
If you then try a 3rd time you will find maybe only the first 2 need a slight tweek.

You can keep doing this all day as provided your torque wrench stays set to 29nm it will simply keep clicking and never do the bolts up any further.

You then put the torque wrench away and you do not use it again on the head bolts.

Take your angle gauge, turn bolt No.1 by 120DEG
do the same with bolts 2-18 .
That's it. Don't do anything else.

If you have used some of that ARP lube on the threads and under the head of the bolt then they are pretty smooth to turn.

After reading your posts again, It looks like you may have only done the 29nm of torque once, i think I said to do it a few times but that may have been another thread, sorry!
When you do the first torque the head gets pulled down onto the gasket and flattens everything out. You have to work following the sequence to avoid any ripples forming in the gasket. In theory it should only need one run as said in the manual.
What actuall happens is the head sits on the 2 locating sleaves that are in the block.
29nm on the center bolts will actually warp the head rather than pull it down on the sleaves, as you get closer to the outside bolts the head gets pulled down to the block and the middle bolts then have a bit of slack in them. If you go over again with your torque wrench you should be able to move the middle ones a bit before they reach 29nm.
If you only do the one run with torque, then do the 120deg angle you may find the center bolts will be at a lower actuall torque then the outside ones.

I can still not really understand how you have done a torque, then an angle then another torque sequence.
It would be starnge (although not impossible) that you did 120DEG and that also happened to be 120NM but asied from that you would also have had to set your torque wrench to 120nm. If you just happend to set the wrench to 120nm then I would expect that all bolts that were at less than 120nm turned and anything that was over it did not and just clicked. Without having a readout on your wrench I can't see how you can tell that the bolts were actually at 120nm anyway?

Posted by: billymadbiker

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I can still not really understand how you have done a torque, then an angle then another torque sequence.
It would be starnge (although not impossible) that you did 120DEG and that also happened to be 120NM but asied from that you would also have had to set your torque wrench to 120nm. If you just happend to set the wrench to 120nm then I would expect that all bolts that were at less than 120nm turned and anything that was over it did not and just clicked. Without having a readout on your wrench I can't see how you can tell that the bolts were actually at 120nm anyway?

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That is exactly what I did!!!!!!!! I think you did understand from square one but it sounds so unlikely you dismiss it as not possible and therefore you must have misunderstood. But that is exactly how it happened. On the angle sequence some bolts clicked when reaching 120degrees and some didn't. I then went over and did them all in the same sequence to make sure they all clicked. The WHOLE time the wrench was set by PURE CHANCE to 120NM.

Posted by: Yoda

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Posted by: billymadbiker

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I can still not really understand how you have done a torque, then an angle then another torque sequence.
It would be starnge (although not impossible) that you did 120DEG and that also happened to be 120NM but asied from that you would also have had to set your torque wrench to 120nm. If you just happend to set the wrench to 120nm then I would expect that all bolts that were at less than 120nm turned and anything that was over it did not and just clicked. Without having a readout on your wrench I can't see how you can tell that the bolts were actually at 120nm anyway?

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That is exactly what I did!!!!!!!! I think you did understand from square one but it sounds so unlikely you dismiss it as not possible and therefore you reason you must have misunderstood. But that is exactly how it happened. On the angle sequence some bolts clicked when reaching 120degrees and some didn't. I then went over and did them all in the same sequence to make sure they all clicked. The WHOLE time the wrench was set by PURE CHANCE to 120NM.

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So, were you using the torque wrench when you did the angle sequence?
Using both the torque wrench and the dial gauge at the same time?

Correct. Before starting the angle sequence I wound the torque wrench several times to stop it clicking before I got to 120degrees. I had no idea and had not checked that I had wound it to 120NM. I only checked that when it clicked on the first bolt precisely as the angle gauge got to 120degrees.

question - where all the bolts the same ??? as in make up

Sounds like you have done it ok then?
You have set them ALL to 29Nm and then ALL to 120DEG?

If that is the case then you don't need to worry about the fact that some may be at 120NM Some at 100Nm and some at 150NM.

You KNOW they are all the same as they were all set to 120DEG.

This was the point I made before about how unrelible torque only was. You have proved this by some bolts being 'tighter' than others according to the torque wrench but you know for a fact that they are all wound in the same amount as they all went to the same 120DEG

Not quite billy. They were all at 120degrees yes. And as you say obviously they were at varying NM. But then I went over and re did them at 120NM. So in theory over stretched at least some........

Yes Treeboa all the bolts were identical.

so as billy is saying all the bolts are clamping identically, assuming the bolts are m12`s, the threads come in at 1.00/1.25/1.50/1.75 as the pitch, so from that if all bolts are turned to 360 degrees then all bolts will pull into the threaded holes that the pitch is, so say for instance 1.50 then it will for each turn clamp down 1.50 mm, now we know once down it cant do that, so what happens is the bolt stretches that distance, all things then being equal each bolt no matter what is clamping at the same force as the shanks of the bolts and the heads are the same as each other
from memory when alloy heads came in torquing down was found to produce more come backs as the gaskets failed, initially they were sent out and too return in a week for retorquing, even that gave unacceptable results, so then it was torque down, run the engine to operating temps, allow to cool and re torque, again that still did not fully cure the issue, tightening by angle was found to be the way forward

I definitely understand now the benefits of angles. But my angles will not be even now. So I must do it again.

personally i would be tempted to run it up and see how it goes

Too late now bolts are out!

Pus I wouldn't have liked the prospect of taking it all apart from Rad to head AGAIN if I was wrong.

Too late now bolts are out!

Pus I wouldn't have liked the prospect of taking it all apart from Rad to head AGAIN if I was wrong.

I can understand the angles thing on stretch bolts, but I still believe all Classic head bolts are not stretch.

Posted by: LezT

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I can understand the angles thing on stretch bolts, but I still believe all Classic head bolts are not stretch.

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I'm very curious about this. If you read all of this thread you'll see billy gives me detailed description of what stretch bolts are like. Even confirming a photo of a bolt is a standard bolt. On the back of that I ordered stretch bolts from Milners but other than a subtle marking difference they were not as described by billy. they had a tensile rating and the shaft was even. So by billys definition they were not stretch. But I had to get on so I gave milners the benefit of the doubt. Now, this time I have ordered stretch bolts from elsewhere that are advertised, unlike milners, as "THESE ARE STRETCH BOLTS" SO we'll see when they turn up I guess.

if you got a micrometer or a decent digital vernier it may be worth checking to see how much of a waist the bolts now have

Good idea. I really need to buy a vernier. I'll hold onto the bolts that I pulled out tonight.

ebauy cheapies aint bad

I will check some genuine bolts tomorrow. Stretch bolts do only have subtle markings on the head but they are there none the less. often a triangle or a few lines/marks that decrease in size.

When running a composit gasket the classic bolts were not stretch and had a torque only sequence.
Since the introduction on the MLS gasket the bolts were changed to stretch and the torque/angle sequence introduced.

Although the year of this truck in question would not have been fitted with stretch bolts originally as a steel gasket was being fitted as an upgrade then the correct bolts to suit the gasket should be used in the correct sequence.

My truck is a 2001 on a 2002 plate, and a composite gasket came out. But yeah, as per your previous advice I wanted to put in a steel gasket and stretch bolts. I've got a vernier on the way so I should be able to see if the ones I just took out were actually stretch like they were supposed to be.

Vernier came. Measured the 'stretch' bolts that I took out. The ones from Milners. There is NO difference in the measurement of the shaft on them. A solid 11.0mm all the way down.

they have not stretched then, on stretch bolts or any bolt that has stretched you would have found a slight ` waist`

dont chuck them, when the correct bolts arrive compare the lengths