Ask an Expert..... » Winch Bumper Legality. (Law types needed)

#1 by Fielder , Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:15 pm

Got into a bit of a debate with your usual armchair know-it-alls on the FB group who seem to think all forms of winch bumper are illegal and we are all baby killers for having one, Despite the fact my truck passed its MOT with one, the police have never said anything about it and I drive past VOSA checkpoints weekly with no problems and even my Insurance did not care.

Not to mention the fact the National Trust and my local council has a ton of vehicles with winch bumpers and winches fitted.
But with that in mind, can any Legal types shine any light into the exact Legality of Winch bumpers and what differentiates them from a bull bar and A bar?

#2 by animal , Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:26 pm

Here's what I found out after fitting the tube bumper on our surf

1. The EU legislation distinguishes between a 'bumper' and a 'frontal protection system.' The latter is defined as a separate structure which, 'in addition to the original-equipment bumper is *intended* to protect the *external* surface of the vehicle from damage in the event of a collision.' This includes 'bull-bars' and 'A-bars,' for example.

2. The legislation bans manufacturers (and probably certain other parties) from 'distributing, offering for sale, or selling' such 'frontal protection systems' unless they have been EU-type approved. And, the rules are set up so that it is practically impossible to get such type approval.

3. However, there is nothing preventing someone from owning such a 'frontal protection system,' or installing it on his vehicle. The rules are aimed at manufactures and distributors, not end users. End users cannot be prosecuted.

4. Moreover, the rules don't apply to 'bumpers' and 'winch bumpers', so long as they are not 'intended to protect the external surface of the vehicle from damage in the event of a collision.' In some cases, this may be a bit of a grey area. But, the legislation does define a 'bumper' as 'intended to give protection to a vehicle when involved in a low speed frontal collision with another vehicle.'

So, in simple English, you will have a hard time finding a bull bar in Europe, as a lot of suppliers will be unwilling to sell it to you. However, there is nothing stopping you from installing one, if you happen to come into possession. Moreover, winch bumpers and winch mounts remain perfectly legal to sell and install. This was apparently confirmed in a Q&A by the Department of Transport.

#3 by Fielder , Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:28 pm

That is exactly what i found and used to show that the bumper was not illegal!

#4 by animal , Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:35 pm

I think the other thing is it's only illegal to modify the front of vehicles etc from about 2007 onwards as there was a discussion a while back about a 2006 pram being able to have a winch bumper etc but a 2007 pram can't have one ...... Something Like that anyway ....

#5 by Greigboy , Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:50 pm

Justin, usual arm chair know it all reporting for duty, I didn't mean to boil your piss, you obviously know what I do and I have personal experience of this that I do not wish to broadcast on Facebook.

Winch bumpers, bull bars etc are not illegal but there are caveats to that, that trump an MOT, I have touched on these on the Facebook page.

You will find no shortage of people on Facebook to support you and you are completely free to do your own thing, I have absolutely no intention of arguing the toss, but I have quoted road traffic law and the governments guidance on "bull bars" which applies equally to any other aftermarket accessory or modification.

I do not lead a chaiste existence but I'm completely satisfied with the implementation of the legislation.

As always you are totally at liberty to make your own mind up on it, the chances of you being pulled or done for it during a general stop is extremely remote, mainly due to a lack of knowledge or desire from general plod, however I only hope that you are never in a position to have your assertion tested in the event of an accident.

#6 by Fielder , Tue Nov 03, 2015 3:59 pm

Hi Greig,

Had not understood it was you on FB, The joys of the disparity between peoples real names and their L200 handled. Unfortunately i do not know your occupation, I'm going to assume law enforcement? If so you are perfectly placed to correct me on this one on the law and legal side of a winch bumper and I will be happy to bow down to professional knowledge (As was the original purpose of this thread) as you can see from the above, Opinions on this as are spread wide and devideed.

#7 by woody13 , Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:20 pm

Well on that note I'm gonna nip out and wrap my 6mm thick heavy duty lamb killer in cushions....Sorry about that,I meant razor wire...

#8 by Fielder , Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:28 pm

Quote: woody13 wrote in post #7
Well on that note I'm gonna nip out and wrap my 6mm thick heavy duty lamb killer in cushions....Sorry about that,I meant razor wire...

Those Zombies aren't going to kill themselves!

#9 by Greigboy , Tue Nov 03, 2015 4:32 pm

Quote: Fielder wrote in post #6
Hi Greig,

Had not understood it was you on FB, The joys of the disparity between peoples real names and their L200 handled. Unfortunately i do not know your occupation, I'm going to assume law enforcement? If so you are perfectly placed to correct me on this one on the law and legal side of a winch bumper and I will be happy to bow down to professional knowledge (As was the original purpose of this thread) as you can see from the above, Opinions on this as are spread wide and devideed.

Abosolutely no issue

I'm 12 years a plod, feckin hate road traffic though 😄

Winch bumpers, A bars spot light bars etc fall under modifications and accessories, absolutely no issue with them if the are E marked, although they are still as lethal.

There is subjecture ( usually on Facebook ) regarding such things as you will not find legislation that specifically states "winch bumpers" "bush cables" "spotlights" etc etc, but they come under construction and use legislation covering "mascots" or "projections"

I've had personal experience of this twice, first time was a cheap fast and furious style boy racer boot spoiler which snapped off at speed striking a truck windscreen, causing the truck to jack knife, no injuries, but the vehicle was examined and the boy was done rotten under construction and use, as well as for his blue lights in the grille etc
The second was an Recovery driver who had grafted a body from another vehicle onto his wagon which was too long and wide and posed a risk to pedestrians, a prohibition notice was put on it and he was done under construction and use, I believe it was eventually crushed as there was no way it would have been made safe.

In terms of your own bumper, I very much doubt you will attract the attention of the law under normal circumstances, and even at that you are likely to receive a warning etc as opposed to any prosecution, but the other fella with the massive "stinger bar" is defo up for a tug as that sticks up well beyond the body line of the truck and would be lethal struck a pedestrian.

This debate goes round in circles on the forums and Facebook and it will continue to do so for as long as people modify cars, you pays your money you take your chances.........I do myself 😄

#10 by Major Malfunction , Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:13 pm

If I've read this correctly,any vehicle before 2006 a winch bumper and winch are allowed as long as the winch and bumper do no exceed the height of the bonnet and the winch has not been fitted so as to add secondary protection to the vehicle. But it's a grey area.

#11 by Mallinman , Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:34 pm

In short it's a put it on at your own risk job. It is a very grey area tho. Also read somewhere that it's slightly more legal if it's intended for use a lot. Like a winch bumper and winch on say a forestry or recovery vehicle. Still not 2 sure tho. I think it will generally get missed by the local plod unless u are involved in an accident. But then having fluffy dice could also be a problem as there not standard. Unless you've bought a hippy wagon.

#12 by Yoda , Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:35 pm

Well I'm properly confused now. I would also like to make sure I am within the law. Rather than just "unlikely to cause an issue." And I would rather not wait until I rear end someone who pulls out on me to find out that my bumper gets me prosecuted. GB, as an objective plod who has owned a couple of modded 4x4's, could you explain in layman's terms what we need to know to be absolutely safe? Is it a style thing? Ie are we better off with a big flat ARB type bumper rather than the pointier, bull bar'esque McK bumpers that several of us have?

#13 by Greigboy , Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:08 pm

Quote: Yoda wrote in post #12
Well I'm properly confused now. I would also like to make sure I am within the law. Rather than just "unlikely to cause an issue." And I would rather not wait until I rear end someone who pulls out on me to find out that my bumper gets me prosecuted. GB, as an objective plod who has owned a couple of modded 4x4's, could you explain in layman's terms what we need to know to be absolutely safe? Is it a style thing? Ie are we better off with a big flat ARB type bumper rather than the pointier, bull bar'esque McK bumpers that several of us have?

Luke there is no issue with winch bumpers or any accessory as long as it's E marked and being safety certified, that goes for any accesory, or aftermarket part, but obviously some are more relevant than others in terms of safety.

The 2007 rule applies to modifications carried out after 25 May 2007 not vehicles registerd after, as such modify a 2001 truck in 2015 then the accessory must be E marked, if you can prove the vehicle was modified with a non E marked accesory before May 2007 then you are okay, but that would need to be bullet proof in the event of a serious incident, and in any event I would imagine almost every modified truck on here has been done after this date.

In laymans terms if it's home made and fitted after 25th May 2007 then it's for off road use only, and used on road at your own risk.

Are there loads of people out there with home made bumpers, light bars, suspension mods etc etc etc?.......absolutely

Are they likely to be prosecuted?.........highly unlikely in normal circumstances, kill or seriously injure someone and you open Pandora's box as this fella found out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lincolnshire/7846801.stm

The Land Rover had many "ill-judged" modifications designed to improve its off-road performance, the court heard.

Another account of this story tells how he had no formal qualifications in welding or vehicle maintenance

This is the reason I counselled about the commercial selling of the ball joint spaces and some of the crude stuff being sold by WSO etc

Below is the snippet I put on Facebook referred to at the start of this thread

Mot test is trumped by construction and use regulations, please read into it for your own information.

For the purpose of the legislation a winch bumper, bush cable roof rack or any other non factory protrusion
Comes under the same classification as a "mascot" or "projection"
There is no requirement to specifically name each component in the legislation.

You are not expected to declare makes to your insurance and walk about with a certificate, but you are expected to ensure that any accessory is compliant and any such accessory must be "E" marked (safety compliant)

Providing they are "E" marked then they are perfectly legal to use, home made bars and bumpers will most certainly not be "E" marked.
The fact that you drive past VOSA, passed an MOT or stopped by plod who says nowt is completely irrelevant.

I've included a couple of snippets many will argue and they are welcome to, although not a specialist, it does form part of my day job.

Regulation 53 of the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 provides for the carrying of objects on motor vehicles

53(1) No mascot, emblem or other ornamental object shall be carried by a motor vehicle first used on or after 1st October 1937 in any position where it is likely to strike any person with whom the vehicle may collide unless the mascot is not liable to cause injury to such person by reason of any projection thereon, unless provided for by paragraph (2).

E marked guidance, which cites bull bars but the principle applies to any accesory or modified part.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/sy...5/bull-bars.pdf

#14 by Yoda , Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:24 pm

I appreciate that GB. I for one was not aware of the E mark regulation. Although it is quite logical with hindsight. I believe this now puts me in the situation where I would prefer to remove my bumper in favour of an E marked winch bumper. While I drive sensibly, I do not want to end up in an accident that is more than likely going to be the other person's fault, but where I get prosecuted for having a bumper that is deemed too dangerous.

#15 by Major Malfunction , Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:32 pm

Bloody hell mr greigboy great write up it opens more cans of shite than I do.

#16 by Yoda , Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:34 pm

I am curious now as to what winch bumpers would have an E Mark. I'm assuming this limits us to the larger well known manufacterers. ARB and XRox for example. Seeing as they would be the only companies willing to spend out on EU certification. I'll make some enquirires on this asap. But for the sake of argument, would something like this http://www.4x4at.com/mitsubishi-l200-199...nt-winch-bumper be likely to be E marked?

#17 by Major Malfunction , Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:43 pm

£780 I would rather hire an elephant to tow me out.

#18 by Yoda , Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:56 pm

Could this regulation of E marked mods extend to such things as lift kits? My body lift is Xpajun and my shackles are blood red, but does this mean that they are safe in the event of an investigation into my truck?

@Major Malfunction, yeah it's a lot. But I'd rather pay it than be jailed. That or revert to a standard bumper and winch tray. Suddenly a DIY bumper seems a big risk.

#19 by Greigboy , Tue Nov 03, 2015 6:59 pm

Quote: Yoda wrote in post #14
I appreciate that GB. I for one was not aware of the E mark regulation. Although it is quite logical with hindsight. I believe this now puts me in the situation where I would prefer to remove my bumper in favour of an E marked winch bumper. While I drive sensibly, I do not want to end up in an accident that is more than likely going to be the other person's fault, but where I get prosecuted for having a bumper that is deemed too dangerous.

Luke with any brand name products from bonafide suppliers there has to be an expectation of compliance, or they would otherwise have to stipulate for off road use only.

Any of the fabricators ( leyland fab etc) who make these will be quite clear (or should be) that they are for off road use only and anything other than that is at your own risk.
Thats not to say that an ARB or TJM, Terrafirma etc is the holy grail, as to where you find details of E marking or equivalent I don't know, there has to be a degree of expectation though that the big boys will have invested in certification to an equivalent level in their countries of manufacture, however kill someone with a fancy bumper and your still likely to be in for a rough ride, again if it's a work tool or your off road regularly you have a valid use, if it's just for "the look" or the twice a year you drive through a muddy puddle then.......
I didn't start the thread on FB which was regarding a daft looking home made bumper and it's not to frighten anyone or call anyone's work into question, I have made stuff for my trucks and will continue to, but I wouldn't make stuff for anyone else.

Again, I am not a lawyer, and I am not giving legal advice, just putting the other side of the debate for people to make their own minds up......as the say in crime watch, "please don't have nightmares"

#20 by robert3040 , Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:08 pm

Cheers for the input and your knowledge Greig.
Yoda,Fielder, I won't me moving my Mck bumper as I bought mine in 2006 prior to owning the truck.(took it off my 4 Runner) I did tell Mck not to maake yours so high and protruding ! 😜
If you knock a person down up here they are usually so pissed they just bounce off and say "Sorry mate"

#21 by Yoda , Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:16 pm

With regard to making sure you're totally safe, would an IVA / SVA cover you? Are they not specifically for imports or modified cars that are now too far removed from standard so as to be covered by the manufacturer? I'm just thinking, suspension lift, body lift, winch bumper, V8, ... All of a sudden my truck has a lot of angles and areas that might be investigated. So if I got an SVA test then that's VOSA saying "this truck is safe and within regs", right?

#22 by Greigboy , Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:25 pm

Quote: robert3040 wrote in post #20
Cheers for the input and your knowledge Greig.
Yoda,Fielder, I won't me moving my Mck bumper as I bought mine in 2006 prior to owning the truck.(took it off my 4 Runner) I did tell Mck not to maake yours so high and protruding ! 😜
If you knock a person down up here they are usually so pissed they just bounce off and say "Sorry mate"

I wouldn't be rushing to take it off if it was mine either, as I said the thread eminated around someone making a home made bumper with a very large "stinger bar" that you see on the polar exploration trucks.

#23 by Yoda , Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:29 pm

I'm not going to rush to take it off but I'm definitely going to look into it as you advise.

#24 by 123hotchef , Tue Nov 03, 2015 9:36 pm

u can still mod brand new pickups and fit winch bumpers no problem my mate just brought a arb for his toyota 2015 pickup

#25 by Cribbs1984 , Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:45 pm

I read the fb post, is it just me that finds it hilarious that you guys know each other on here? PMSL. Handbags at dawn..

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Winch Bumper Legality. (Law types needed)

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